Finding and Onboarding Your Next People Leader - Erica Ravich

It’s easy to treat hiring and onboarding as two separate events. You find the person, you make the offer, and then the real work begins. But that’s not quite right. What you miss in the hiring process tends to show up in the first six months. And what goes wrong in the first six months often traces back to something nobody asked in the interview.

I invited Erica Ravich to talk about this. Erica is an Executive Director at Frazer Jones, a global HR executive search and recruitment consultancy. She’s also a coach with a background in integrative health, which means she thinks about candidates as whole people, not just resumes. She works both sides of the house: helping companies find the right people leader, and coaching candidates through what comes next.

What I appreciated about this conversation is that Erica didn’t just answer my questions. She asked some of her own. That’s the kind of exchange that actually goes somewhere.

Suzan: Erica, you and I know each other from TroopHR. We met poolside at the TroopHR retreat.

Erica: The best way to meet. Who doesn’t love meeting in a pool?

Suzan: Can you introduce yourself for folks who don’t know you and share a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Erica: I have worked in HR recruitment for the past 13 years, mainly at small boutiques. I am now at a global firm called Frazer Jones. We are a global firm, and we’re part of the SR group. I personally focus in our HR division, and then we have other folks that work within accounting, finance, legal risk, compliance, marketing, and sales. I work a lot in the financial and professional services space. That’s become my specialty, although I’ve worked a lot with tech firms and all types of companies over the years.

I also coach. I do a kind of holistic coaching that includes career, lifestyle, health, wellness. I’m certified as a personal trainer and I did get certified through the Institute of Integrative Nutrition for health coaching. A big passion of mine is not just how do I help people find their jobs, but how do we integrate them into the organization, make sure it’s a long-term fit, and people are happy overall in their life.

Suzan: I love that perspective, thinking about somebody holistically. My guess is that translates to your work.

Erica: Absolutely. Life and career, it’s really all integrated. Career’s a part of life, so looking at how lifestyle is going to work for someone as they’re evaluating career opportunities is really important too.

A resume really can just give you so much in terms of their actual career history and experience and some technical skills. But what it doesn’t tell you, which is so important in an HR leader, is their judgment and their ability to build relationships and influence.

What the Resume Can’t Tell You

Suzan: What do you look for when you’re looking for a leader? What do you look for that doesn’t show up on the resume?

Erica: A resume really can just give you so much in terms of their actual career history and experience and some technical skills. But what it doesn’t tell you, which is so important in an HR leader, is their judgment and their ability to build relationships and influence, and just someone that people can trust. Their EQ is really important too, and how they can carry themselves in a conversation.

HR folks are put in difficult situations all the time. They’re trying to manage risk for the company and also trying to advocate for their employees. They’re in that tough spot always. Someone who can really navigate that is critical.

Suzan: How do you identify those things? How do you discover what doesn’t show up on the resume?

Erica: Whenever I’m talking to a candidate, it’s not really a quote-unquote interview, it’s really a conversation. I’m trying to get to know them as a full person and understand what makes them tick and how they lead. I ask for specific examples about challenging times they’ve had and how they’ve navigated that. It’s really not just what they’re saying, but how they’re talking about it. Who’s taking accountability? It’s really in the nature of their language and how they choose to tell the story too.

Suzan: I know for me, I’m looking for a crackle of something. A crackle of energy, the way they talk about something. It’s not just their words, but there’s a crackle of like, yes, this person’s going to get really excited about it. Give it to me, I want that challenge.

Erica: You can feel it. The energy piece is so important. You can just feel that energy when it feels genuine, if they’re excited about something or not.

Suzan: Right, it’s not just a checklist or the perfect answer. I don’t want someone to be perfect and stiff. Loosen up a little bit, let me see the real you.

Fit Over Competence

Suzan: I love that you talked about fit. I would love to hear more about how you think about that, because you work on both sides of the house.

Erica: There’s culture fit, which is an intangible that kind of goes off of energy. That requires me to really get to know my client quite well and also the candidates quite well. But I think beyond culture fit, it’s also fit for the challenge that may be coming up at the company. You may have an HR leader who loves to build and is looking to leave their current organization because it’s business as usual, and that’s not exciting to them. If there’s an opportunity at an organization going through transformation, and they’re looking for that HR leader who’s gone through that and understands the challenges, that’s an opportunity I would be excited to share.

HR today is not just about people, it’s really about aligning people strategy to the actual business. It’s so much more strategic than it ever was. Ever since COVID, it really rocked HR’s world.

Suzan: On the other side of that, I advise CEOs on how to look for their next leader. I think a lot about work style. Are they push really hard, go for the goal? Are they people and collaborative oriented? Are they systems oriented? I try to help them think through what kind of energy do you want on your executive team.

I encourage them to think about how is this personality going to fit into this executive team room. Do they bring something new? Or do they bring more of the same? And often it’s something new, because if I’m working with somebody, there’s some sort of organizational change going on. Maybe they have a ton of what I think of as organizational debt, and a people leader is really going to help drive that forward.

Here’s the truth. Lots of people have functional expertise. That’s not hard to find. Somebody would be like, we need the best functional rock star. I’m like, do you, though? Maybe, but do you?

Erica: No, I totally agree, because I think it’s equally as important for a company to find someone who’s experienced, who maybe has taken a company through M&A events or potentially going through a large series of RIFs, and they need someone who knows what it’s like to go through that and is not afraid of it.

Beyond culture fit, it’s also fit for the challenge that may be coming up at the company.

The First Six Months

Suzan: What do CEOs and organizations need to know about selecting and onboarding an HR leader?

Erica: The first 3 to 6 months of a new job is painfully tough for anyone. Anytime I place someone, I always coach them and say, be patient with yourself, be patient with your colleagues in the organization. You’re coming in and you don’t know why they do things the way they do, but there’s a reason why. Get to understand why, and if you can figure out a way to make things better, build that relationship and build the trust first.

Suzan: My advice is always, take a beat. I think leaders feel like they have to come in and make an impact and show their worth. And sometimes I think it comes from, am I in the seat, do I deserve this? All sorts of insecurity that comes with any role, but surprisingly for some people with senior leadership roles too. Everybody has nerves.

Erica: Oh, 100%. Both sides of the house are probably a bit nervous and uncomfortable in the first few months. It’s like dating. Is this the right fit? Are we gonna commit? Everyone needs to be a little patient with each other.

Suzan: I love that analogy. And I think about that a lot, because when you put a new person into that leadership team, it’s going to change it. Anyone you put into your culture, but especially a senior leader, is going to change it, and we have to allow ourselves to be changed. No sudden moves. You don’t need to prove yourself, nor does the team need to make them be something.

Erica: You have to also see them through different challenges and how they react. You don’t really get to know a person until you see them through tough times. It’s easy to do well when things are easy.

Suzan: One of the Matrix movies, one of the characters says, you don’t truly know someone until you fight them. When you really understand how do they fight, how do they deal with conflict, how do they deal with when times are hard, that’s when you see people.

I watched a new CPO come in, and there was more stuff going on at the organization than they expected. That’s almost always true in my mind. And they were sort of like, did I make a bad choice? Oh my gosh, is it good? And I watched them a year later completely helping to transform the organization. It just took a little bit of that beginning, everybody trying to figure out.

I don’t think, unless they do something really objectionable, you’re going to know for at least 3 months, sometimes 6.

Erica: I totally agree. You have to see them through different challenges. If it’s just easy peasy, everything is all great, you’re not going to see how someone responds in a challenge.

When the New Leader Reveals Org Debt

Suzan: Sometimes a new people leader can come in and help reveal some of the organizational debt and some of the problems that are going on.

Erica: 100%. A lot of times the biggest reason I hear people leaders saying they’re not happy in a role they just joined is that their expectations were completely different from what they were coming into. It’s because things were just not revealed, or there wasn’t anyone diagnosing it. It wasn’t like someone was trying to be manipulative. It was more just, oh, we didn’t realize this was a problem.

Suzan: Right. They didn’t know. Maybe they don’t even know themselves. They’re not trying to hide it.

Erica: When evaluating potential HR leadership candidates, a big reason people tell us they are looking to leave is because they joined an organization and three to six months in. They’re like, “I made a mistake.” And the reason tends to always be, this is not what I thought I was getting myself into. There’s mismanaged expectations, but not necessarily because everyone knew. It was more that no one knew what was going on.

Suzan: And sometimes the shock to the system is really welcome. I’ve watched the CEO say, yeah, that was the right hire, that HR leader changed the course of where we’re heading and it was exactly the right thing.

HR today is not just about people, it’s really about aligning people strategy to the actual business. It’s so much more strategic than it ever was.

When Something’s Off and You Don’t Know Why

Erica: Do you find that the challenges they’re looking for you to solve, is it general business performance and how do we change that through our people, or what’s the chaos, what’s the challenge?

Suzan: Well, I mean, sometimes it’s we’re having some senior leadership movement, we’ve had some exits on our leadership team. Sometimes a CPO comes in and says, no, no, we need Suzan because my job is already full and I need somebody to help me because I don’t have capacity and I’m bringing in a specialist. Sometimes they’re just like, things aren’t working and I don’t know what, I’ve tried a lot of things and something’s not working. And often it’s like, hey, you should talk to Suzan.

I also think I attract that kind of work. I like going from chaos to clarity. I enjoy that. And I think companies have to get into a little bit of a confronted space, where they’re like, we’re not reaching our goals. We’re trying OKRs, we’re trying this, we’re trying that, and it’s not working because the organization has some obstacles at the organizational layer, what I call organizational debt. So they bring me in to help remove those blockers.

Erica: Right, right. Makes sense.

The Moment HR’s Role Changed

Suzan: Is there any last thing you think about a lot around the work you do?

Erica: The world of work is obviously rapidly changing. COVID completely rocked the world of work, and it’s really shined a spotlight on HR leaders. They’ve become kind of the catch-all for, okay, this is a problem, what do we do? With AI now, there’s a lot of risk people are trying to mitigate, but it’s not a problem, it’s an opportunity really.

HR leaders need to take the reins and lead the conversation around AI, because there’s so much talk now around what is this going to do to jobs. HR leaders have such a big opportunity to be aligned to strategic business objectives and the performance of a business more than ever. It’s not just about finding talent, onboarding, retaining. It’s about how are we finding the right people to take our company forward, given all the changes happening with technology. It’s a really exciting time to be in HR. It’s also really challenging.

Suzan: There is so much organizational change going on since COVID. It’s been so good to talk to you about your perspective and how you see that from your seat.